"Government should be set up so that no man need live in fear of another." -Montesquieu
The recent terror attacks in Paris ignited a fresh debate
among many western nations, including the United States, about how we should
relate to one another, and more particularly, how do we balance civil liberties
with national security?
For followers of Jesus, our questions must go deeper, and
the questions we need to ask are impossible to answer without a comprehensive
understanding of what transpired in France.
Some weeks ago, my office was contacted by Gilles Lisimaque, a brother
in Christ who attends Upper Seneca Baptist Church in our
Network.
Born and raised just outside of
Paris, Gilles has lived in the United States for the past 25 years and has been
a US citizen for more than 17 years.
Professionally, Gilles is a security expert, partner with ID Technology,
and has been involved for more than 28 years in developing smart cards which are
now used in Bank cards and Government Identification Systems. Gilles has been
involved in setting technical standards for identification and finance security
nationally, and has been one of the world's leading experts in smart card
specifications and applications.
Additionally, he has advised multiple US government agencies on matters
of national security relative to the country's individual identification
systems.
Gilles is a father of two, and grandfather of six, and is
the proud patriarch of a multicultural family that now spans three
generations. He maintains close
relationships in Paris with his family and contacted our office wanting to
offer his perspective to American Christians--feeling that there is much that
is misunderstood about what transpired in his home country that is fueling
necessary fear in the United States.
Most importantly, he is concerned about the efficacy of Christian
witness in America.
In short, Gilles' background involves striking the
appropriate balance between security concerns relative to the preservation of
liberty, and the Christian mandate to lovingly engage the world Jesus died
for. I was delighted through this
interview to get to know a man who believes these concerns are not mutually
exclusive, and my hope is that readers will gain a fresh perspective on what
transpired in his country that will help Christians here better respond to the
world in which we find ourselves. An edited
transcript of our conversation is below: Please note that the San Bernadino terrorist attack was not mentioned in this interview. This is because the interview took place just a few days prior to those events. That event and others will be discussed at a subsequent event this coming spring called "Loving Neighbor in an Age of Terrorism." More information on that conference is below.
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JR: Let's jump
right to the point of this conversation.
What is the biggest misconception Americans have about what happened in
Paris?
GL: Since you and I spoke first, this has changed,
because much more information has come out since then, nevertheless it does
seem that the American perception hasn't really changed. The biggest misconception is that the Paris terrorists
were foreigners--that they were not Europeans but instead immigrants, when the
facts are that they were French or Belgian citizens. They were born in Europe, and were citizens
by birth.. All these people had probably
been helped by the social welfare of the state, but for some reason they did
not integrate. It seems they were raised
in what we could call in the US a "ghetto", with people of the same
origin and the same poverty level. As I
understand, similar things happen here in black neighborhoods, where there is
little work, little help, little hope and a feeling of rejection, where hate
and resentment is every day’s feeling, ending up in crime and use of weapons to
kill each other.
JR: So you are saying that in that situation, a radical
ideology gives them an identity?
GL: Yes. When I was young, I had an experience similar
to this. France, as you may know, is
mainly a Catholic country. I was raised
in a Protestant family. Devout Catholics
in my neighborhood would not allow their children to play with me. When that happens, you don't feel like you
are integrated, acknowledged, and loved but ostracized. And that was between Christians! It’s probably because of that experience that
growing up 20 Km from Paris I never felt I truly felt at ease in such a culture. I must say not all French
people are this way, it was more an exception than the rule, and it has changed
for the better since I was young, but nevertheless it is an emotional scar you
keep as a child.
I've been here in America for 25 years now, and I've never
felt that kind of rejection. But again,
I'm Protestant who now live in a predominantly Protestant country. So I can understand why those of a different
faith than me might feel rejected, and as a result be hesitant to integrate
into the larger society. People won't
seek to integrate if they feel no one wants them.
JR: So the result is that they created their own
community that replicate their culture of origin because they feel as though
they don't belong in French community at large?
GL: Well, they
stay together. But the
"ghetto" isn't something they always wanted to create. Outside people create a wall around them
because they don't want to go into it--in much the same way that a wall was
built to separate the Jews from the rest of society in Europe decades ago. People think "these people don't dress
like me. They don't think like me. So they should stay there and I will stay
over here."
JR: That's
surprising to me, because when I think of France as an American, I think of a
very tolerant nation that's open to anyone and anything.
GL: On one hand,
that's true. But on the other hand,
we've had lots of immigrants, for example, from North Africa, and these
movements created a cultural shock that decades later, we have not completely overcome. Many (but not the majority yet) French people
put up walls between themselves and immigrants to their country, and this fuels
the isolation.
JR: Are there any
parallels that you see between what happened in France and what you are
experiencing in America now?
GL: When I came to
America, I was very surprised by the racial divide. The "black/white" divide that has
been there since I moved here 25 years ago was very similar to the
"French/North African" divide I had experienced in France. Some had horrible attitudes toward black
Americans; "they aren't civilized.
All they do is kill each other."
That sort of thing. We allowed
differences in culture, music, and other things to justify keep us isolated
from each other. The difference of course,
between these scenarios, is that Black Americans by majority are Christian, so
we share the same faith. As a
consequence, many leaders on both sides were able to appeal to that commonality
to diffuse the situation.
JR: You are speaking of Martin Luther King and others?
GL: Precisely.
Christianity was the common faith that called us all together and helped
quell the fights between black and white.
So in America it was about race, and in France it is about culture and
faith, but this is just a "different difference." Both are rooted in cultural differences. And to me, that's the parallel. When I was fulfilling my French military
service, I was a police officer. At that
time, we were seeing numerous immigrants from North Africa, and a number of jokes
arose among the police about them. This
was because we would get many complaint calls from residents whose North
African neighbors were keeping goats on their balconies, or storing coal for
heating in their bathtubs. It was a different way of living. Not right or wrong, just different cultures,
in different places. But because we
never tried to understand or befriend, only isolate and make fun that widened
the divide. This was fifty years ago and
would not happen today. By then that stereotype was given to stigmatize the
whole community.
And that was what I learned from my experience as a
French police officer. Ghettos are too
often created by people on the outside of it that form a wall and inside the
wall, it feels safer for those stigmatized as “different.” As I said before, it
has created a posture that says "I don't know these people. They don't look like me. They don't dress like me. They should just stay over there."
JR: That's actually a pretty devastating thought; that we
"created" the ghetto.
GL: Yes, but I think that's really our problem as
Christians. We are unwilling to listen
to differences because it could offend us, make us ask questions. I don't know who they are, but why don't we
listen? Of course we have different
beliefs, languages, and cultures, but we need to try to learn about each
other. When I came here, it was a
challenge to learn about American culture and society, and try to figure things
out. I was able to do so because I was
not rejected right away for being different. I had to listen a lot in order to
do that, and I am still learning.
JR: I'm sure, and
we are a pretty loud bunch.
GL: (laughter)
Yes, that is the case with some, but I've learned that sometimes we make
assumptions about how people behave because we simply don't know them. For example, there is a stereotype I've heard
that many Americans have, that says the French are rude. This isn't as widely accepted an assumption
as it was 10 years ago. Often this opinion
is formed because of the experiences Americans they had 20 years ago while
traveling to Paris and visiting the various merchants. This is because they don't understand a
fundamental difference in our cultures.
In America, you browse from the inside of a store. In France, you do it from the outside, and
when you enter the store, you enter to buy.
And so if you enter the shop and don't buy anything, especially in a
small one, you have taken the time of the retailer for nothing.
When Jesus met with the Samaritan woman, He talked about
commonalities, and only after he listened to her he said "one day you will
see worship happen everywhere, not just in Jerusalem." Proving an opening,
hope, understanding, I think that's the way we should interact with people.
JR: What are some
practical ways to overcome the isolation that you would suggest?
GL: First,
information should always come from multiple sources, and those sources should
be compared and contrasted. We live in a
world where we have access to American, British and European, Asian and Middle
Eastern news sources. If you only listen
always to what you want to hear you can never form an intelligent, informed
opinion. You just believe to only one
voice which may not be as open as they say they are. We need all those sources of
information (different point of views) to form a....what is the English word I
am looking for?
JR: Perspective?
GL: No, I am
thinking about......when you have two mountains and a valley in between there
is a...
JR: Depth?
GL: Yes, we need
to understand the full depth of these issues.
JR: Our English
metaphors can be difficult.
GL: (laughter)
yes. Well, this depth is important,
because if we don't have it we will want to put whole groups of people in a
silo, and then anyone identified in that way gets the same kind of
treatment. For example, there are in the
US religious groups in Michigan, Pennsylvania, and or Ohio who decided, as a
community, to live in with each other in a certain way. It doesn't violate the law, so this is fine,
this is not what I call a ghetto. Here
in Maryland, parts of Montgomery County were "dry" for years, because
people there said "we want to live in community in a certain
way." It didn't mean you couldn't
drink alcohol, only that you couldn't buy it in that community. We should respect local communities and their
identities, and we can do that if we govern by abiding by the majority. The majority is what a democracy should
be. My freedom stops where the liberty
of the other person starts. That's not
easy, and it’s impossible to do if we don't know each other, if we do not
listen to the other person with respect.
Otherwise, we violate the liberty of others without even knowing it.
JR: And in a working democracy, the fleshing out of that
is far more difficult than we admit.
GL: Oh it is difficult, because my liberty has to do with
what I think I can do, and the other person has another way of thinking about
the same right, and so where it starts and stops, has to do with respect, understanding,
and knowledge of others become so important if we want to live in a democratic
society.
JR: So, should Americans traveling to Paris be afraid?
GL: Of who? The French people?
JR: (laughter) I
know it’s a bit of a softball question, but when there is fear, you have to
understand people will be asking questions like this.
GL: Yes I
understand, and I would say it’s no more dangerous than here in Washington,
D.C. I mean, come on! You could be the victim of violence anywhere. When you get on a plane, it might go down,
you drive a car, and you may have an accident.
The probability is low, but it could happen. We are Christians. We use wisdom and assess risk, and know that
we are ready to go if our time has come
Note: This spring, we are following up this interview with a conference entitled "Loving Neighbor in an Age of Terrorism," in partnership with the Montgomery Baptist Association. The conference will involve a panel discussion led by churches in that Association, which boasts the second most diverse ZIP code in the United States. Details are forthcoming.
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